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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:28 pm 
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Some good idea's
I gues the go would be some sort of electronic speed controler to vary the flow according to boost and rpm, and iv found the water pump to use is out of an rx7 used to wash thier head light's, more reliable than your standard wind screen washer motors.
As for position of the jet, well i guse every set up's diffrent, Im gunna try pre supercharger and see what happens.

Cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:59 pm 
Ive been running my injection pre-turbo for over 15000kms, and have removed the turbo for inspection and have not seen any signs of wear. The previous turbo did suffer pitting on the compressor blades after 30,000kms or so but the nozzle i was using was rather inferior. I really think it comes down to how fine the spray is, in fact, wether its a spray or a mist makes a difference, in my opnion and experience, as to wether increased wear on the blades will occur. I have also read that mixing a far softer substance like alchohol (i.e. methanol) with the water softens the blow considerably.
Avoiding wear comes down to the nozzle slecetion. CAPA in adelaide sell shocking kits that have a plastic hose that is melted shut at one end, with pin holes acting as a Nozzle !!!! I also found out that the heated and crimped nozzle, does actually come undone (as in open, hydrolocking the engine in the process) the hard way.

The aquamist kits used on rally cars reccomend injecting post turbo, but they use 100p.s.i. pumps and good quality nozzles. I am happy to squirt my water pre turbo, as my window washer pump wont allow great enough pressure to make use of the super fine misting nozzles available from places like Spraying Systems. The "shur-flo" range of 12v 60-80 p.s.i. pumps are more suitable for those, however they are a few hundred dollars each i believe.

Lookin forward to that TCS tho' James. If you want a durability test dummy, my ute is driven daily over 100km's, uses my VDO windscreen pump and Spraying Systems nozzle at the moment, and I'm in melbourne!
Cheers


Aaron


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:19 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Sydney
Anonymous wrote:
arent you gonna turbo ur car freestyler??


no but my other car will be


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:24 pm 
Jeez im retarded!
What i said about the aquamist systems on rally cars using injection AFTER the turbo....

Derrrr. Of course of they go in after the turbo. Probably AFTER the bloody INTERCOOLER too!

So, to clarify, if an intercooler is in use, i wouldnt be injecting pre turbo!

Can just imagine that cooler filling up with water as it condenses hehe...

Sorry bout that one!

Cheers...


Aaron (am3037-not logged in)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:19 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Sydney
some links on Water injection - all the research ive done
http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html
http://waterinjection.info/phpBB2/index.php?sid=fdf6d938eadb60b2658cf41fc593ad6e
http://www.h20injection.com/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&start=0&sid=b67d624dc4530b05a4ce28076ba8230e
http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html
http://hometown.aol.com/taylorafdmb/water.html
http://www.pro-spray.com/sprayer_pumps.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/waterfuel.htm
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

and the best system of all
http://website.lineone.net/~da.cushman/misc/mannject.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:12 pm 
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Location: Sydney
where to get a shurflo water pump, with the built in 50psi pressure regulator


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:18 pm 
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i think water injection is crude, and very dangerous engine-wise for beginners to be setting up themselves. hydraulic lock-up at 5000rpm is not fun.

but my opinions are not worth going into if you're getting good results from it. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:13 am 
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thehelix112 wrote:
James,

Apparently (and it kind of makes sense) that if you put the entry point for the water before the turbo you will eventually wear away the edge of the compressor wheels: water is a lot harder than air after all.

That being said you would be expecting to get better water atomisation thanks to the compressor wheel spinning at some tens of thousands of revolutions.

Me, I'd be looking at injecting it around the t/b (depends on how its set up of course: pre or post) at as an acute an angle as possible.

Wouldn't be too hard to try different places though I guess.
Regards,

Dave


At the time of writing I had forgotten about the intercooler hidden away in the front of my car :) all my previous cars didn't have a one... with one of those I guess you pretty much have to go after the cooler....

But if you didn't have a cooler fitted then - where is the best entry point?
In a carby turbo you stick the carby in front of the turbo and there is all sorts of stuff (additives) in fuel.... they don't wear the wheel... if atomised correctly then water also shouldn't cause any wear?? (this has been my experience anyway)

Doesn't most of the heat get generated in the turbo - so wouldn't the best cooling come from sticking it in before it, so as to aid in cooling the turbo as well....?

Do the negatives of running it before turbo outweigh the positives of running it before turbo? (assuming no intercooler)

The reason I ask is because I know of plenty of cars that have factory intercoolers that are too small and if they just added a big pipe in place of the intercooler... and added water injection they could make more HP... ? (hopefully going to test this theory on a 32 GTST, cause the std intercoolers on those become really restrictive at anything over 14psi)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:52 pm 
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Location: Sydney
would a shurflo water pump spec ='Self primes to .7 metres and comes with a 40 PSI pressure switch'
be alright to use as my pump for water injection on a N/A carby L20B?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:31 pm 
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James,

The wear on the compressor wheel is probably markedly worse in cases where the water is not atomised as well prior to entry: maybe a storm in a tea-cup issue?

Ok so what are some of the positives of running the injection pre-compressor?

1. Improved atomisation of the water: better cooling
2. The compressor housing will most likely remain cooler, I don't know how this would affect anything really.

And the negatives:

1. Potentially accellerated wear on the compressor wheel.
2. The energy required to compressor air AND water vapour will be greater than that of air alone (water weighs more than air). This is a non-issue as the injection is normally not added until the turbo is producing boost anyway.

Any others?

From my perspective pre-turbo looks like the go if you're good mates with a turbo shop or your turbo is cheap as chips.
Me, I'd be looking at water/air intercoolers before I'd look at water injection.

Dave

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:54 pm 
water/air intercoolers for DRAW THROUGH ???


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:04 pm 
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Yes.

But the R32 GTST in question is not draw through.

Dave

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:20 am 
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Location: Darwin. Home of the Rice Car ShitHeap Lancer/Excel and really gay numberplates.
With my injection pre-turbo, the intake pipe remains very very cool in current melbourne weather, even after extended boosting.


I don't have any air-to-air intercooling on my engine any more, and sinced I swapped to using just the water injection, the intake manifold and plenum are also very cool, far cooler than when I used air-to-air cooling. Its also kept my engine extremely cool as well. Since swapping, It is near on impossible to get the engine to overheat (twin core navara radiator). You can still put your hand on the rocker cover for as long as you like after driving, and water temps never see more than 89 degrees with an 82degree thermostat and 13psi cap.
I reckon that a load-referenced (not boost) water injection controller, coupled with pre-turbo and intake runner nozzles and enough dyno time could equal or surpass any other form of intercooling. Propane injection?

I guess that could be where air-to-air intercoolers are a better option if your looking for a fast solution. Ease of fitting a semi-universal device that you know is going to be effective almost regardless of differences between models/modifications. And a lot less dyno time.

Aaron

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:52 am 
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Aaron,

Tis horses for courses really. Water injection for a track car maybe isn't as useful given that you may need to carry a shitload of water to get you through a race. But for a drag car, maybe it is.

Water injection should be based on the load and air consumption of the engine. E.g boost and rpm.

Lets not forget that the reason why water works so well is because it has a high specific-heat value, ie, it absorbs a lot of heat when it changes from a liquid to a gas. This is what cools the air/fuel charge and makes it more dense. However when it does this it also expands significantly, thus making the charge less dense as the water vapour now occupies space that air/fuel would otherwise.

If you're talking about fancy forms of intercooling, why not mention water-sprayed air/air intercoolers, or nitrous-sprayed air/air intercoolers. Tis always going to be a trade-off between the consumption of something and the efficiency of the cooling.

Straight air/air sits at one end with no consumption and alright efficiency, while something like nitrous-sprayed air/air or an ice-water-packed water/air intercooler at the other with high consumption and high efficiency.

Dave

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USA Project: 1978 280Z, minor suspension upgrades, VK56DE conversion in progress. SOLD
AUS Race Car: 1973 240Z, L28ET, Autronic, GT35R. SOLD
AUS Project: 1972 1600, 3200km old S15 SR20DET, ground up rebuild. SOLD


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:46 pm 
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Location: Darwin. Home of the Rice Car ShitHeap Lancer/Excel and really gay numberplates.
Agree with you totally on that one Dave. Was just posting my example to see if any one had similar findings/experiences in alternative cooling, or would use the info as a guide.

My car is only a daily, so carrying around a coupla litres extra and filling it up at the petrol station every time i buy fuel is not so much a prob for me.
I can see how it could be unwanted on a track, but for that matter, Saab or Audi had water tanks almost as large in volume as their fuel tanks during the 80's rallying era! Like you said, maybe.

What you said about boost/load referencing is starting to make a little more sense now when i think about it. I was wondering if 12 p.s.i of boost air would be the same temp at 50%load as 12p.s.i at say 70%load?

If it were the same temp, do you think it might make boost-pressure injection (with the 'right' nozzle of course) more accurate?

Just wondering

Aaron

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